I have never been an OTO member, though I am very much interested in and agree with some of Crowley's teachings...however, I have my own experiences with spiritual groups I have founded and then had to leave because they drifted from the original ideals, or sank into authoritarian cults of personality that were more about the group and the people in it than the Deities that the groups were formed for devotional purposes. Sadly, stories of "schisms" like this follow a very definite pattern in the modern world, and it is unfortunate that the results are so often similar.
As I have said many times when teaching about the paths I have traveled and the work I have done, this work is "for anyone, but not for everyone," meaning there is no barrier of any sort for anyone to become engaged with the work (even though some in the groups I alluded to attempted to make said groups only for people of particular identities, or to favor certain people more than others), but that by its nature, it would not appeal to everyone...and furthermore, doesn't need to, because as good pluralists, we don't think there's only one valid way, nor are the promises of following this path to the defamation or damnation of anyone who does not follow it or have any interest in it.
I appreciate reading about your experiences. It allows me to put into context more of what I've heard and seen with OTO acquaintances of mine, as well as those who did OTO and the other groups I have been involved with (and often brought assumptions from those other groups, including OTO, into the expectations of other paths where they may not have been contextually relevant or useful, which was one of the largest difficulties in being non-exclusive...but that's another story!).
I believe AC designed OTO as a social organization for aspiring Magi. However, when one progresses in Magick, one often becomes less "social", less dependent upon and/or interested in the support of a social network. I believe organizations have their place, but the developmental tendency of most organizations (especially the religious/philosophically-based) is to fail to enable the unique gifts of individuals due to the increasing rigidity of their structure.
So 'Lover, when thou wilt, depart', you know? It was fun while it lasted, and emotionally very satisfying in its time. What's more fun than doing elaborate theatrical ritual with your peers, or discussing your progress in Magick, your thoughts and theories with those on roughly your own level? Not to mention the excitement of meeting someone attractive with whom can do ritual on a far more intimate level? All these and many more are the benefits of joining the Lodge. I enjoyed them all, a long time ago, for several excellent years, when the Berkeley Caliphate was in its heyday.
In 1983 I moved back to the East Coast. There I found the local Lodge to be dominated by very literal-minded inflexible people I could neither follow nor respect as peers. The dominance of politics, hierarchy, sexism, and the general lack of self-awareness on the part of the leadership was appalling. Berkeley in the late 70's/early 80's just wasn't like that. This was a big letdown to me but I decided then not to waste my time on a social organization that offered absolutely nothing I couldn't find on my own. I moved on, as indeed a good many of us do.
So yes, we outgrow things. It hurts, but we do. It's part of magickal progress. Frankly I think AC would be the first to endorse this. In the end even his opinion doesn't count, however. It's between you and your HGA if you like. Do What Thou Wilt.
That was the idea behind Thelemic Union, before IAO131 reverted to his old behaviour of thinking he's superior to everyone and resenting those who actually succeed where he fails.
I know you and I, as well as Bishop, would work well together. Many others, too. But I am not sure I would want to have anything to do with Sandler, or even Entelecheia or Thiebes. I mean, you can only get those many years of harassment and abuse before you realise those people are not, in fact, your tribe.
Indeed. But the existential crises of putting so much of one's self into a structure like the one offered by oto, only to be completely disillusioned does change a person. I suppose the one bright light in all of this, is that so many of us recognize the difference between the message and the messenger. I venture to say that that's not true of the majority, who believe the oto is in fact Thelema, and never look at the system as having anything to offer.
I can't imagine the karmic consequences for those that drive people away from the very thing they've taken oaths to protect.
have you your own branch of ecclesia gnostica? id like to hear more. im italian aswell. are you into Memphis and mizraim? btw i really liked the aleister crowley manual stellar book and images
I have never been an OTO member, though I am very much interested in and agree with some of Crowley's teachings...however, I have my own experiences with spiritual groups I have founded and then had to leave because they drifted from the original ideals, or sank into authoritarian cults of personality that were more about the group and the people in it than the Deities that the groups were formed for devotional purposes. Sadly, stories of "schisms" like this follow a very definite pattern in the modern world, and it is unfortunate that the results are so often similar.
As I have said many times when teaching about the paths I have traveled and the work I have done, this work is "for anyone, but not for everyone," meaning there is no barrier of any sort for anyone to become engaged with the work (even though some in the groups I alluded to attempted to make said groups only for people of particular identities, or to favor certain people more than others), but that by its nature, it would not appeal to everyone...and furthermore, doesn't need to, because as good pluralists, we don't think there's only one valid way, nor are the promises of following this path to the defamation or damnation of anyone who does not follow it or have any interest in it.
I appreciate reading about your experiences. It allows me to put into context more of what I've heard and seen with OTO acquaintances of mine, as well as those who did OTO and the other groups I have been involved with (and often brought assumptions from those other groups, including OTO, into the expectations of other paths where they may not have been contextually relevant or useful, which was one of the largest difficulties in being non-exclusive...but that's another story!).
I believe AC designed OTO as a social organization for aspiring Magi. However, when one progresses in Magick, one often becomes less "social", less dependent upon and/or interested in the support of a social network. I believe organizations have their place, but the developmental tendency of most organizations (especially the religious/philosophically-based) is to fail to enable the unique gifts of individuals due to the increasing rigidity of their structure.
So 'Lover, when thou wilt, depart', you know? It was fun while it lasted, and emotionally very satisfying in its time. What's more fun than doing elaborate theatrical ritual with your peers, or discussing your progress in Magick, your thoughts and theories with those on roughly your own level? Not to mention the excitement of meeting someone attractive with whom can do ritual on a far more intimate level? All these and many more are the benefits of joining the Lodge. I enjoyed them all, a long time ago, for several excellent years, when the Berkeley Caliphate was in its heyday.
In 1983 I moved back to the East Coast. There I found the local Lodge to be dominated by very literal-minded inflexible people I could neither follow nor respect as peers. The dominance of politics, hierarchy, sexism, and the general lack of self-awareness on the part of the leadership was appalling. Berkeley in the late 70's/early 80's just wasn't like that. This was a big letdown to me but I decided then not to waste my time on a social organization that offered absolutely nothing I couldn't find on my own. I moved on, as indeed a good many of us do.
So yes, we outgrow things. It hurts, but we do. It's part of magickal progress. Frankly I think AC would be the first to endorse this. In the end even his opinion doesn't count, however. It's between you and your HGA if you like. Do What Thou Wilt.
i totally agree with you on the cult mentality of oto groups
Imagine, if we could put all of the people the left oto for the reasons we did into the same room. I wonder what we'd create?
That was the idea behind Thelemic Union, before IAO131 reverted to his old behaviour of thinking he's superior to everyone and resenting those who actually succeed where he fails.
I know you and I, as well as Bishop, would work well together. Many others, too. But I am not sure I would want to have anything to do with Sandler, or even Entelecheia or Thiebes. I mean, you can only get those many years of harassment and abuse before you realise those people are not, in fact, your tribe.
Indeed. But the existential crises of putting so much of one's self into a structure like the one offered by oto, only to be completely disillusioned does change a person. I suppose the one bright light in all of this, is that so many of us recognize the difference between the message and the messenger. I venture to say that that's not true of the majority, who believe the oto is in fact Thelema, and never look at the system as having anything to offer.
I can't imagine the karmic consequences for those that drive people away from the very thing they've taken oaths to protect.
have you your own branch of ecclesia gnostica? id like to hear more. im italian aswell. are you into Memphis and mizraim? btw i really liked the aleister crowley manual stellar book and images
Yes, I have been running Ecclesia Gnostica Universalis since my exit from OTO in 2018. You can read more here: https://ecclesiagnosticauniversalis.org
We do not proselytise and effectively do not look for new members.
I am a 90th Degree APRMM, not currently active in any obedience. I only maintain active presence in my UGLE regular Freemasonry.